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« They who can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. »

 Attribuée à Benjamin Franklin, 1755.

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MediaWiki message delivery (discutercontributions)

15 octobre 2019 à 01:55 (CEST)

Répondre à « Tech News: 2019-42 »
Elisabeth Leblanc (discutercontributions)

Bonjour Trizek.

Toute nouvelle dans la communauté, j'ai réalisé une page qui en est encore à ses débuts. Tu as rajouté un bandeau que j'ai pris en compte, en effet je n'avais pas relié les sources (je n'avais pas bien compris comment faire). J'ai rajouté les liens nécessaires. Même si la page n'est pas validée à termes... nous faisons le nécessaire, mais nous verrons bien. Est-il possible de retirer le bandeau concernant les sources non citées, qui n'a plus lieu d'être ? J'ai pris, sur les conseils d'un autre contributeur des informations quant à la notoriété du professeur. Cela suit son cours. Merci beaucoup.

Elisabeth Leblanc

(Page Philippe Sarnin)


Trizek (discutercontributions)

Bonjour

N'ayant fait que t’accueillir, je ne découvre cet article que maintenant.

Concernant les sources, cela ne concerne que les parties Bibliographie et Recherche. Et il y a encore des faits sans sources. Or, sur Wikipédia, il faut que chaque fait soit relié à une source.

Avoir ajouté des notes de bas de page pour les ouvrages et publications ne présente pas grand intérêt, vu que les références des ouvrages ont déjà donnés.

Il faut démontrer que ce professeur est notable. Pour cela, il ne faut pas citer ses travaux, mais les travaux d'autres scientifiques qui indiquent clairement que leurs recherches sont basées sur ces travaux, qui font référence. Je pense que cela te sera indiqué par d'autres.

Fais-tu ce travail à la demande de Philippe Sarnin ? Si oui, il faut l'indiquer, par transparence. Attention à ne pas contribuer à propos d'un sujet dont on est proche : c'est souvent source de soucis et de dilemmes moraux.

Elisabeth Leblanc (discutercontributions)

Je te remercie pour ces informations utiles. Non je ne fais pas ça à sa demande. Il n'est pas du tout au courant. Je suis psychologue du travail moi-même et je cherche à faire mieux connaitre cette discipline qui est fortement nécessaire actuellement dans de les entreprises et pour aider les personnes en souffrance dans le cadre du travail. Le professeur est un des personnages essentiels pour comprendre la psy du travail. Il est d'ailleurs référencer dans la page de la psychologie du travail sur wikipédia. Nous regardons si nous pouvons trouver ce type de référence. Sinon ça sera peut-être pour plus tard quand il y aura plus de travaux.

Je te remercie pur ta réactivité.

Elisabeth Leblanc

Répondre à « Professeur Sarnin »
MediaWiki message delivery (discutercontributions)

7 octobre 2019 à 17:36 (CEST)

Répondre à « Tech News: 2019-41 »
Cantons-de-l'Est (discutercontributions)

Bonjour,

On se croise peu, mais je sais que vous faites l'accueil des nouveaux (qui n'est pas ma tasse de thé). pour ce travail !

Trizek (discutercontributions)

Merci beaucoup !

Répondre à « Merci »
MediaWiki message delivery (discutercontributions)

2 octobre 2019 à 20:49 (CEST)

Répondre à « Growth team updates #10 »
OrlodrimBot (discutercontributions)
Répondre à « RAW 2019-10-01 »
MediaWiki message delivery (discutercontributions)

30 septembre 2019 à 18:51 (CEST)

Répondre à « Tech News: 2019-40 »
Nielsbohrium (discutercontributions)

Bonjour. Oui il s'agit bien de moi sous un nouveau compte (chose que je n'ai pas cachée et que j'ai annoncée ici ou là en interne). Il m'a été permis de recréer un compte à partir du moment où je ne rejouais pas la même partie et que je restais dans l'éditorial, merci de ta compréhension.

Trizek (discutercontributions)

Bonjour

Intervenir sur les mêmes sujets, qui ont amené au blocage, est précisément « rejouer la même partie ».

Prudence.

Nielsbohrium (discutercontributions)

Roger

Chris a liege (discutercontributions)
Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

Hi Trizek; I attended your and Samat's presentation Onboarding and Retention: Hungarian and French Wikipedias in Stockholm and found it very interesting. I'm trying to find out what, maybe, German-language Wikipedia could learn from your approaches to improve retention of newbies and the number of active editors. One thing I learned is that in French Wikipedia, you use Flow for the "Forum des nouveaux" (German Wikipedia on the other hand uses, as everywhere, the classic approach for "Fragen von Neulingen".) Another thing seems to be a somewhat different approach to newbie welcoming messages and mentoring, though I'm not yet quite sure where the key differences are. Did I get this right:

  • French Wikipedia uses uniformly Modèle:Bienvenue nouveau to welcome new users, all new users (or only new users with edits?) are welcomed using this template, it is distributed by a bot, but always signed by a specific human editor.
    • Is the user who signed the message then seen as in some way "responsible" for the newbie and being their designated contact person?
  • German Wikipedia uses a variety of welcoming templates, people are free to choose one from de:Kategorie:Vorlage:Begrüßung (particulary frequently used are de:Vorlage:Hallo, de:Vorlage:Willkommen, and de:Vorlage:Begrüßungsbox.) These are distributed at the discretion of people welcoming new editors (not by a bot). They contain pointers to the mentoring programme where people can, if they want, choose a specific mentor or place a wish for mentoring (a mentor will then respond).
  • It seems that you have some kind of new mentorship programme which replaced your old one. In your presentation on page 8, you say that "the opt-in Mentorship program is not used anymore". How is it different from your current Mentorship programme, that is, I particularly don't quite understand how the new programme is no longer "opt-in"? Is it mandatory? How would you describe how it differs from the German system?
Trizek (discutercontributions)

Hello Gestumblindi, and thank you for your message!

We use Modèle:Bienvenue nouveau to welcome every new account created on French Wikipedia. The template is distributed by a bot, but it can also be manually distributed of needed. The message is signed by someone from a list, and that person is the point of contact on the wiki for the newcomer. They are not responsible for their edits, though (welcomers don't review what their assigned newcomers do).

We also have more welcome messages, mostly for IPs to encourage them to create an account.

Concerning the mentorship program, I meant by "opt-in" that newcomers had to go there and find someone, contact that person and more or less commit to edit. I guess that's the way it works on German Wikipedia?

We have discovered that this mentorship system is not efficient. The signed welcome message, with a clear call to action ("please contact me if you have any question") is what people are looking for. If they want to edit an article about sports, they don't need to find someone who is interested about sport to know how to ad a citation or use a template. If people have specific questions about sport, they can be redirected to the matching wikiproject. Wikiprojects can also contact newcomers that are working on their field.

This is why the mentorship program is not used much anymore and has been progressively removed from the welcome message. And now, new mentorship relations are based on the welcome message.

I hope that I've replied to your questions. If not, please ask! I'll be very happy to provide you more information. :)


Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

Thanks for the reply, Trizek! In response to your question:

Concerning the mentorship program, I meant by "opt-in" that newcomers had to go there and find someone, contact that person and more or less commit to edit. I guess that's the way it works on German Wikipedia?

Well, more or less. German Wikipedia's approach to welcoming newcomers is muss less methodical. If users are welcomed, then manually by those who like doing this job, choosing one of the several available templates at their discretion. The messages then are individually signed, which however doesn't mean that the "welcomers" necessarily view themselves as the point of contact. Not all new accounts are greeted/welcomed at all, there is an element of randomness to it, I'd say (has someone of the dedicated "welcomers" seen the account? have they deemed them worthy of being welcomed? etc.) Usually, these messages contain a pointer to de:Wikipedia:Mentorenprogramm, where users are encouraged to place a wish for a mentor on their user page with the big, blue button; alternatively, they can choose a specific mentor from the list. So they do have to "go there", but (if welcomed with such a template), at least they have received a pointer. But obviously, your approach seems to work better.

I plan to write an article for German Wikipedia's Signpost equivalent (Kurier) where I will try to present some thoughts on possible ways we could learn from the French and Hungarian approaches.

Trizek (discutercontributions)

So not everyone is welcomed on your wiki? I don't know how people can feel when they discover this.

I don't think we thought about welcoming bad people, or people that "don't worth" to be welcomed. I think we have just assumed good faith and decided to welcome everyone, because we can't guess if they are doing to do some bad changes or not (or show redemption after "testing the system". :)

Feel free to ask me more questions if you need. I'm happy to help.

Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

There are opinions in German-language Wikipedia's community that it would seem silly to welcome obvious spammers or self-promoters, or that this would devaluate the welcoming of actually well-intentioned newcomers. So I think it will be hard to propose a system where absolutely *everyone* is welcomed (that's what you do? Even spammers?), I suppose that people still want some kind of checking before issuing a welcome message. But on the other hand, as said before, your approach seems to work (better). I have been away for a few days and will continue researching this matter a bit later.

Trizek (discutercontributions)

We welcome absolutely everyone, assuming that anyone is a future good faith editor.

How can we know if someone is a spammer? Spammers may make a couple of good edits (and be welcomed) before having a bad behavior. Some spammers are not real spammers, but good faith users who think that they are doing the right thing.

For the latter, have a point of contact may help them: they can question an experienced editor about what they want to do. It happen to me once, when a public institution wanted to manually add thousand of Authorities links to Wikipedia articles: I redirected them to some Wikidata gurus, and everyone was happy.

Welcoming everyone is a zero-cost effort, since it is a bot work, and mentors don't have any responsibility on people they welcome actions. Spammers and vandals are still blocked: they were welcomed by a human person to act nicely but they didn't took the opportunity to do so. The real benefit is that good faith people and users who doubt about their actions or have questions about their edits are sure to have a point of contact. 100% benefit for the wiki! :)

The Growth team[1] works on a Homepage system, a sort of a basecamp for newcomers. This Homepage is given to every newcomer[2] with a mentor that would help them. So far, the link to the mentor seems to be used, which seems to prove that giving to newcomers a point of contact is important!

  1. I work with them in my WMF staff capacity. Maybe you've seen our presentation?
  2. We are in an experimental phase for now. The homepage is shown to 50% of new accounts on 4 wikis (A/B test). We compare the success rate of editing with the other 50% that has no Homepage.
Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

Thank you! I've now posted some thoughts on possible ways of learning from Hungarian and French Wikipedia in German-language's Wikipedia "Kurier": de:Wikipedia:Kurier.

Trizek (discutercontributions)

Thank you!

I've run Google translate on it and it is a pleasant text. I like a lot the fact that you encourage your community to think about improving newcomers' first steps. This is something every Wikipedia should do!

Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

Another quick question, if I may: You say "We welcome absolutely everyone". Is this including accounts that are automatically created through SUL (when people from other projects visit French Wikipedia), or only accounts newly created here, in French Wikipedia?

Trizek (discutercontributions)

Only accounts newly created on French Wikipedia. Otherwise, it would spam everyone, which is not the goal. :)

We "manually" welcome accounts that haven't been welcomed yet, because they've been created on another wiki (or because the bot was on strike).

Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

Thanks for the quick reply! I'm currently in the process of preparing a first informal poll with the intention of finding out whether there would be enough support for a similar system in German-language Wikipedia: de:Wikipedia:Umfragen/Begrüssung von Neulingen. Yet another question: How many accounts per day are welcomed on average, and how many people are available as "welcomers"?

Trizek (discutercontributions)
Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

Thanks again. Yes, there were encouraging reactions to my article on the Kurier discussion page (maybe you want to have a look at it using Google Translate, too). That was the reason for me to proceed with creating the poll.

Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

By the way: I noticed that there are also more new accounts created in French Wikipedia than in German. Comparing the number of newly created accounts from 1 May to 1 September 2019, there were 52K in French and only 35K in German Wikipedia. So you have a larger number of people who make the very first step of creating an account, before newcomer welcoming actions kick in. That's not surprising, as there are, I think, two to three times more French than German speakers in the world (depending on how you count). But even when considering this, we have of course a much greater decline in active editors.

Trizek (discutercontributions)
Gestumblindi (discutercontributions)

The informal survey (not yet a formal "Meinungsbild" vote) on whether German-language Wikipedia should adopt the French system, or a similar system, has now started and people are giving their opinions at de:Wikipedia:Umfragen/Begrüssung von Neulingen. It will be open until 31 October.

Trizek (discutercontributions)

Great!

I note that you already have 15 people ready to welcome newcomers. This is already a victory it itself.

Also it appears that a majority of people are for adopting the French system.

Concerning people who are against a bot and who think that it would confuse newcomers, I have something like one newbie who ping me per year, asking me who is Loveless. And Loveless user page is clear: it is a bot that picks a real human name and distribute messages. So there is no particular worries to have from this perspective.

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