Discussion:Borommakot

Discussion

Request to change this wikipedia page’s name to Borommakot

Bonjour, French wikipedia admin

I request to change this wikipedia page’s name from Maha Tammaratchathirat II to Borommakot due to 2 reasons:

1. Borommakot is more common name for this king, people in Thailand use this name more than any other name of this king.

2. Maha Tammaratchathirat II is incorrected and misspelled, the correct name is Maha Thammarachathirat II

Sincerely

MayThe2nd (discuter) 2 juin 2022 à 23:50 (CEST)

Salut MayThe2nd As far as I know, thai language does not use the latin alphabet. Therefore, the name of the king is what we call a translitteration. And it differs from a language to another. Do you have any French-language evidence of this misspelling?

Also, do you have any evidence (ideally readable for an illettrate in Thai language, but if not, we’ll have to work it out) for the more common name for the king?

Thank you, -- Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 2 juin 2022 à 23:57 (CEST)

Salut Kirham Thank you for response my request. Borommakot is transliteration from บรมโกศ in Thai and that is more common name in Thai to refer to this king as I said before. You can see that the difference between Maha Tammaratchathirat II and Maha Thammarachathirat II is rat and ra so the corrected name is มหาธรรมราชาธิราชที่ 2 that can transliteration as Maha Thammarachathirat II not Maha Thammaratchathirat. Hope this can help. Sincerely –– MayThe2nd (discuter) 3 juin 2022 à 00:13 (CEST)

@MayThe2ndBut do you pronounce it like batch or like sharp? Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 00:18 (CEST)

ratch or rash? (sorry) Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 00:19 (CEST)

@Kirham ra and รา pronounce like /raː/ just like a in the word bra so มหาธรรมราชาธิราช is /maː-haː-tham-ma-raː-chaː-thi-rat/. Hope this can help, Sincerely –– MayThe2nd (discuter) 3 juin 2022 à 00:31 (CEST)

yep, ok for the ra, but the "cha"... does it sound like chat or like sharp? @MayThe2nd Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 00:38 (CEST)

However this name is not common the more common name to refer to this king is "บรมโกศ" or Borommakot, Thank you –– MayThe2nd (discuter) 3 juin 2022 à 00:38 (CEST)

@Kirham "cha" sound more like ch in "cheese" combine with aː in "bra"

More information about Borommakot/บรมโกศ name that is more common, you can see Thai wikipedia and English wikipedia use this name to refer to this king. Thanks –– MayThe2nd (discuter) 3 juin 2022 à 00:47 (CEST)

Ah, that’s the info I was looking for! There’s a "T" sound. Therefore, if we were to keep Thammarachathirat, it would have to be Thammaratchathirat, since the other spelling, for a French native, sounds like sharp, not like charm. (sorry for the phonetic nitpicking) We’ll have a look at the en.WP article. Thanks! Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 01:01 (CEST)

@Kirham Two Question. Could you please tell me more about a "T" sound that you are talking about. And why you think it more like Thammaratchathirat rather than Thammarachathirat. Thanks.

In addition for Thai language ช is a t͡ɕʰ sound not a t͡ɕ sound (a little bit difference). And the word Ma, Ra, Cha, and Thi have no final consonant so for Thai language we pronounce First Consonant and Vowel no last consonant. Not like in English that when you say "It is" you say it like it-tis in Thai we don’t have to pronounce like that. Again, hope this can help. –– MayThe2nd (discuter) 3 juin 2022 à 01:26 (CEST)

Hi, you told me that the sound was more like chunk than like sharp (not these words, but the idea was the same). The difference is that the first sound of the word chunk is emitted with the tongue stuck on the palate and it sounds like a T... mah rah tchah tee or mah rah shah tee? (@MayThe2nd Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 01:52 (CEST)

Ah, I see. I guarantee that no "T" sound when Thai people say that word. So It’s pronounce like ma/ม——haa/หา——raa/รา—-shaa/ชา——thi/ธิ(short vowel not tee)——raat/ราช, aa is for identify long a vowel.

The problem in Thai language is when you transliterate sh and ch sound is with the same thai alphabet, ช, such as ship=ชิพ (short vowel), sheep=ชีพ (long vowel), chip=ชิพ (short vowel), cheap=ชีพ (long vowel) so in English it is different sound but in Thai, when you transliterate, it is almost the same sound, ช (with no "T" in first consonant.

However, Should we just leave "มหาราชาธิราช" and just use "บรมโกศ" instead Hahaha.

Anyway, Thank you for your time and Thank you so so so much for this conversation hope it can help.

@Kirham

MayThe2nd (discuter) 3 juin 2022 à 02:41 (CEST)

@Kirham

Here is more information that retrieved from Chantharakasem National Museum (พิพิธภัณฑสถานแห่งชาติจันทรเกษม). This museum is now managed by Fine Arts Department, Ministry of Culture (Thailand).

This museum is located in Chantarakasem Palace which was inhabited by Borommakot as you can see that he is 7th on the list of inhabitor: http://www.virtualmuseum.finearts.go.th/chantharakasem/index.php/en/about-us/10-about-us.html (in English) and http://www.virtualmuseum.finearts.go.th/chantharakasem/index.php/th/about-us.html (in Thai)

Chantharakasem National Museum, which is government’s museum, refer to พระเจ้าอยู่หัวบรมโกศ in English as King Borommakot.

For your consideration.

Best regards.

MayThe2nd (discuter) 3 juin 2022 à 17:48 (CEST)

OK, I will suggest the name change. Thanks Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 18:50 (CEST)

 Jules* : est-ce que ça te semble dans les clous ou il manque de justificatif? Merci! Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 18:54 (CEST)

Euhhhh pour être franc ça me dépasse un peu, là, @Kirham. Si l'argumentaire est OK, tu peux renommer  ; si tu as un doute sur un point de l'argumentaire, il vaudrait mieux demander à quelqu'un qui maîtrise le thaï, peut-être sur Discussion Projet:Asie du Sud-Est. Amitiés, — Jules* ^discuter 3 juin 2022 à 20:32 (CEST)

Merci Jules* Je vais faire ça, pour protéger les brancards. Salutations -- Kirham ^{qu’ouïs-je?} 3 juin 2022 à 20:46 (CEST)