Discussion:Collier des Brísingar

Pbs de traduction

Sigo, merci de vérifier les noms, le sens, je n'ai pas du tout l'habitude, il doit y avoir plein d'erreurs... Pour le détail des questions :

• je ne sais pas bien quel titre donner à la page : Brisingar ? collier des Brisingar ?
• traduction de Husdrapa ? sörla pattr ?
• citadelle et armure brillante ? ça fait bizarre... éclatante ? rayonnante ?
• deuxième version d'Euhemerus? ce ne doit pas être ça...
• comment faire pour le livre de Garner : laisser le titre en anglais ? Je n'ai pas trouvé la traduction du titre en français sur le net, existe t-elle ?

Dis-moi ce que tu penses de cette traduc en général et si finalement ça t'aide ou pas ! Merci, --GP 26 février 2006 à 17:10 (CET)

Sources?

My French is too bad, but someone need to rewrite this article. Freyja having sex with 4 dwarves like a cheap prostitute for the necklace is from a lame story written by en:Christian Priests, en:Sörla þáttr, which was invented 400 years after the Christianization to insult en:pagan gods and goddesses. Please read en:Brisingamen and en:Freyja

This article currently say that Freyja has sex with 4 dwarves like a cheap prostitute for the necklace, but where is that written? Which pagan Viking wrote it? Which mythological writing is that? No, no mythological writing says that. No pagan Viking wrote that. It's from en:Sörla þáttr, an anti-pagan story written by Christian Priests to praise en:Olaf Tryggvason, the Christened King who forced thousand Vikings to christianize.

The article certainly needs rewriting (that's why I put the template "La pertinence de cet article est remise en cause" 6 months ago). In particular, Sörla þáttr should be dealt with more cautiously. But a story written by Christian priests to praise Oláfr Tryggvason can contain genuine information (see Ögmundar þáttr dytts). Concerning Sörla þáttr, I don't think Freyja slept with dwarves (goddesses are not supposed to have sex with giants or dwarves), but her promiscuity is well-known. Sigo 10 février 2008 à 19:23 (CET)

en:Sörla þáttr. It's like this: "In 15th century (more than 400 years after the bloody Christianization), 2 Christian Priests wrote a story (Sörla þáttr) saying that the great pagan goddess Freyja is just a human in Asia, and is concubine of king Odin (who is also a mere human). King Odin loved her so much because she is the most beautiful, but then this shameless slut prostituted herself and had sexual intercourse with 4 strangers, some filthy dwarves at that, like a cheap dirty hooker to just get a gold necklace. Upon hearing that, the pitiful cuckolded king Odin stole the necklace (the proof of prostitution and infidelity) to punish his concubine and force her to turn people into undead and start wars (a demonized reference to the pagan belief that dead heroes serve Odin and Freyja). But later, the great and noble Christian lord Olaf Tryggvason arrived with his holy Christian army. The evil pagan curse cast by the cuckold Odin and the whore Freyja was easily dissolved by Olaf's brave Christened men. And so, Christianity brought peace, and the evil paganism is over. How great is Christianity!"

We shall analyze Sörla þáttr:

- It's written by 2 Christian Priests (enemy of Paganism) in Iceland, roughly 400 years after the violent Christianization started by Olaf Tryggvason.

- These 2 Christian Priests never write anything about Pagan Mythology.

- They do not give any sources for what they write. That story of Freyja's prostitution appears nowhere else either.

- It contradict older sources: in numerous sources, Freyja is the wife of Odr whom she shed golden tears for, not "a concubine of Odin".

- It blatantly borrows and alters Húsdrápa: Loki steals Brisingamen and Heimdall beat him to get it back. This story removed Heimdall and says "Loki hands the necklace over to Odin"

- Funny thing: Odin commands Freyja to turn some Kings to undead and make them fight until a great Christian Lord arrives (the heck?) . Freyja agrees and gets the necklace back.

- More funny things: Freyja's evil pagan curse is so strong. It lasts for hundreds of years. Guess who's the "great Christian Lord"? Olaf Tryggvason! Olaf's brave christened men killed the cursed Kings and the pagan spell was dissolved. Christianity brought peace to the land. Yay.

Conclusion? Lame made-up Christian POS to demonize pagan deities and praise Olaf Tryggvason. Unless you think Odin is a real cuckold, Freyja is a hooker, they turn people to undead and Olaf Tryggavson and his brave Christened men brought peace to the land... This story clearly was newly invented, because in en:Lokasenna, when Loki insults all goddesses (including Freyja) as sluts and whores, it is not mentioned. If the "Freyja's prostitution to 4 dwarfs" existed in old Pagan tales, Loki would say "You are a prostitute" instead of making up lies. It's because Sörla þáttr was made up much later than Lokasenna, which means it's anti-pagan.

I am asking for help in translating this article (from English) and the article en:Freyja to French.

en:Ögmundar þáttr dytts contains genuine information? How do you know that? The story does not relate anything about pagan deities anyway, and it also does not blatantly immortalize Olaf. As the "Freyja's promiscuity is well-known", I don't think so. There's nothing in myths suggest that. Except for en:Lokassena, in which Loki claims that Freyja is a whore (and Loki in that poem called EVERY goddess whores, not just Freyja), and Freyja replies that Loki is a liar. And in the poem of en:Hyndla, the giantedd Hyndla insults goddess Freyja as a "she-goat", which means nothing but an insult. Please read en:Freyja. If those can be used to say about Freyja's promiscuity, so what about Frigg? Frigg had sex with her husband's brothers. Frigg had sex with a servant to steal her husband's gold., Freyja on the other hand, cried golden tears for her husband and went away seeking for him. Given how other goddesses like Idun, Skadi, Frigg, Gefjun also have affairs and lovers, Freyja, as a goddess of love, if she has lovers and such, it's no big deal. But ancient pagan Germanic/Norse people would never insult the goddess whom they expect to serve in the after life as a prostitute. And they never did. It's only a Christian account invented 400 years after the Christianization. Those Christian Priests who wrote that might not have invented it, but it was spred by Christians for years so they thought it's old tale, perhaps?

The big problem here: this article write: "Il fut forgé par quatre nains, Alfrigg, Berling, Dvalin et Grer, et pour l’obtenir Freyja fut obligée de passer une nuit avec chacun d’eux.". It is nowhere written like that. No myths/stories whatsoever write that Freyja has sex with 4 dwafs for Brisingamen. Not even Sörla þáttr. The Sörla þáttr does not have the word "Brisingamen" or "Brisinga collar".

What needs to be done

There is no need to comment about en:Sörla þáttr being right or wrong. But "Il fut forgé par quatre nains, Alfrigg, Berling, Dvalin et Grer, et pour l’obtenir Freyja fut obligée de passer une nuit avec chacun d’eux." -> No source. So these facts are needed:

1. Where is that written: It's in Sörla þáttr.
2. What's Sörla þáttr: It's a short story written by 2 Christian Priests 400 years after the Christianization to praise Olaf Tryggvason and Christianity.
3. The Freyja in Sörla þáttr is a human, and said to be Odin's concubine. So it contradicts numerous older sources (Freyja is the wife of Odr).
4. The collar/necklace in Sörla þáttr does not have a name. It's NOT called "Brisingamen".
5. Sörla þáttr clearly borrowed and altered older sources. In the Prose Edda and Húsdrápa, Loki stole Brisingamen and Heimdall took it back. Sörla þáttr stole this story and changed it.
6. What happened after Freyja's prostitution in Sörla þáttr? Odin had her turn some people to undead, which led to a bloody war. In the end, Olaf Tryggvason's brave christened men destroyed the evil pagan curse.

Those are all facts without point of view. Just leave it for reader to think if Sörla þáttr is lame or not. So is there anyone so kind to translate the facts above to improve this article?

Mise en conformité avec les sources et avec l'article anglais

Pour répondre à notre ami Britannique qui intervient à bon escient car en effet la légende des quatre nains telle qu'elle est racontée n'est pas exact et n'a pas de sources fiables.(our British friend is right and I change article with good sources), et en accord avec Sigo. j’ai complété et remanié notre article avec des ajouts de l’article anglais et ses sources qui recoupent les notres(Régis Boyer, entre autres). Thorgis 27 février 2008 à 23:36 (CET)